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I was once interviewed by Cassie Paddock because
she was doing a paper on Friction Fire.
This is that interview.

Joe Lau:

Thank you again for this interview. The interview will become part of an article on the human-fire relationship. This article will start with the acquisition of fire and lead through to the present (matches and lighters). I would also like to bring up how perception of this relationship has changed, with the advent of matches. At least how people’s perception of the relationship has changed.
I have taken the standard and Ultimate at the school. You taught part of the fire section and flint knapping at the standard class Iattended in May 01.
Do you mind if I e-mail you for further questions or need clarification about the interview?I will send you a copy of the article when it is completed if you like.
Feel free to ask me any questions.

The questions are attached.

Cassie Paddock


What was the first “primitive” fire technique you learned?


- Honestly, you might say I first learned the friction fire methods from Tom’s Wilderness Survival Field Guide. But actually I really learned the Bow/Hand/Mouth Drills at my Standard Class. That was the week of August 5th, 1985. I had just turned 17 the month before. I may have learned it there but I never really got fire. I actually got my first fire TWO YEARS LATER after I felt like picking it up again. I got my first Hand Drill coal a few months later. After I got my first Hand Drill coal I wanted to keep going and I ended up being very brutal to my hands because I didn’t pay any real attention to form, only strength. While I was doing a spin something white flew out from between my hands and I thought that was curious and then I looked down at my hands and went “OW!” It was a piece of skin the size of a dime. I learned moderation.

How did starting your first primitive fire compare to starting a fire with matches or lighters?


- I remember feeling I had an idea of something very old which most of the human race had forgotten. I remember being very thankful to know and understand this “connection” with Nature and humans, how inseparable they are and how sad that the advancement of technology sometimes makes us forget “obsolete” things that are important foundations. Again, not necessarily “thinking” it, but definitely feeling it. Matches and lighters are as convenient as the other technologically advanced forms of the “Sacred Order,” shelter, water and food. Houses are built – with indoor plumbing – and stoves and fireplaces – and refrigerators.

How did you come to be an instructor at the tracker school?


- Well…after taking all available courses and volunteering constantly, I was a familiar face, and local. I was forty-five minutes from the farm most of my life at the time. I had some skills and I was easy to get along with. I believe the former senior instructor Richard Cleveland for the position recommended me. (Thanx Rich!) When Tom and Deb first approached me, they had said they had considered me for a position 2 years earlier! But, actually the timing was perfect at that time (1996) to start, but it was nice to hear that. I also worked hard as that was the work ethic and enjoyed the work. Instructors had to do cooking back then too you know!

What is your relationship to fire now?


- My relationship to fire I would now define as one of my MOST IMPORTANT learning tools for helping others understand the Natural Law variables in all the other skills. People are natural pyromaniacs and take to fire making for their own natural curiosity. For example, I start to teach the inter-relationships of the skills through fire. First, I say that my opinion on the Sacred Order is that it is not an order of SKILL…it is an order of BODILY NEED. Hence, before you can have fire (need), you must first have the skills of plant and tree identification, cordage making (if bow drill) and stone tool making skills (if you have no knife!)


How effective are primitive techniques in comparison with the quick match and lighter?


-Do you know of Anatomy and Physiology? It is the medical terms for “Structure and Function.” Essentially something’s physical structure coincides with its proper function. To speak in matters of “effectiveness” I believe is relative to the situation. Do you know that if you dunk (non-waterproof) matches they won’t work? But, you can dunk a bow drill set and still get it to work! In nature, you can make unlimited fire sets but you cannot make unlimited matches and lighters. Yes, of course matches and lighters are convenient, but something is lost in the technology.

What is most important to convey to students when teaching them “primitive” fire techniques?


- There are an unlimited number of lessons. However, my main one is this: You may have already heard this - “If you give a person a fish, you feed them for a day. If you teach a person to fish, you feed that person for the rest of that person’s life.” My next line for this famous moral is: “And, if you TEACH a person to TEACH how to fish, that person will feed that person’s whole community for the rest of their lives.” Learn as though you will teach it.

Do you notice a difference in students (in relation to fire) before and after they have learned the bow drill and started their first fire in the standard class?


- Obviously something inside them has changed. They have learned something they cannot yet grasp and fathom. The lessons of fire (and all the other skills as well) are deep running and will keep teaching them for the rest of their lives. Only those that keep training however will be the ones to uncover and discover them.

How did the development of the match change the human-fire relationship?


- The same way each technique before the match did most likely. But it seems clear that each future generation obviously have less respect and practically no relationship to fire at all.

Why do people still need knowledge of “primitive” fire techniques when we have matches and lighters?

- The same reason why we should never forget where ALL our resources come from. No Nature, No Life. We’ve heard stories that some children believe food comes from the back of the supermarket. Where does fire come from?

What in your perception is the Human-Fire Relationship?


- Fire helps us to remember that we ARE a part of the whole. Humans absolutely cannot live as complete isolationists from Nature.

Can you tell me any significant stories about “primitive” fire use, techniques or history?


- I have no significant stories but only a warning. One may feel one has practiced their fire skills well enough to take care of themselves. But, would you bet a loved ones life on it if you had to start a fire to save their life? I see this happen all to often with all the skills these days, not just fire. These skills provided for the lives of all in the tribe. Today, they are “cool” skills that allow us to raise our self-importance. I feel one must never lose the important perspective of fire making and all the other skills as DUTIES and as responsibilities.

I have found two differing perceptions on the development of human fire use in research; both start with no fire, and move to perpetual fire (use of, but not the ability to start a fire). Where they differ is whether friction or percussion came next. What is your take on this?


- Honestly, I have never tried to ponder this question because we will most likely never know, though it can be fun to guesstimate. Also, its possible that fire making didn’t begin in just one place. And because of this, being that it might have been invented in different environments, then there were probably different “first” techniques.


These are the “primitive” fire techniques that I am aware of, are there any you could add?

> Friction techniques: Bow drill, Strap drill, Hand drill, Mouth drill, and pump drill.

> Percussion techniques: Pyrite to pyrite or flint, Bamboo to pottery or flint, and Flint to steel.

> Physical techniques: Fire piston, and Lens or Reflector


- Three of my favorites are the Bamboo Saw, the Fire Crutch and the Fire Log. The Bamboo Saw (I feel) is quicker, easier and simpler than the Hand Drill. Of course you need to find a bamboo grove but if you are in a forest you will need to find a field type ecosystem to get a hand drill stalk. Thus the importance of learning “variables” over just “techniques” you’ll be lucky if you find yourself in the perfect ecosystem to make fire (meaning the one or two techniques you practiced.)

- The Fire Crutch is a “medium size” bow drill. You use it in a kneeling or standing posture. This one is my favorite for teaching children because it is much more stable and easier to manage than a bow drill.

- The Fire Log is just plain fun. It is a “large size” bow drill that requires a “minimum” of four people to operate.


Would you like to add anything else?


- I feel the longer one studies the skills, eventually they will come to discover Natural Law, which I feel at this juncture in my life is the lowest common denominator of anything and everything we learn.


Keep Going! And, may everyone around you feel and be safer because you are there.


Joseph Lau